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c/trialwatch·posted 1 year ago by u/sanne_laurent

[Discussion] the endpoint advice in here is 5 years out of date

Discussion Clean Column ×6 Receipts ×2 Sourced ×1

Right, the TRIUMPH question again, but with numbers this time.

I have 15 data points over 14 weeks. The pattern is consistent enough that I do not think it is chance, and boring enough that nobody is going to screenshot it, which is usually a good sign.

The thing I would flag for anyone new: the effect I am describing showed up at week 18, not week 67. People give up long before the interesting part.

Interested in whether this matches other people's logs or whether I am an outlier.

4,125 up / 353 down92% upvoted50 commentsid 4eyqid19 Jan 2025

50 comments

30 in this archive, depth 6

best — the order this archive was captured in

u/oskar_ibarra-26 points·1 year ago

Yeah, absolute numbers matter more than the press release.

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u/nora_oyelaran528 points·1 year ago

Crossposting this to c/sideeffects because the people who need it are not reading this community.

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[deleted]208 points·1 year ago

[deleted]

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u/yusuf_ramos356 points·1 year ago·edited

Phase 2 TRIUMPH looked amazing. Phase 3 trials are harder. Do not anchor on phase 2 readouts.

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u/nils_tulloch148 points·1 year ago

the relative risk reduction in headlines is not the whole story

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u/hazard_ratio_halMOD157 points·1 year ago

Tracking number removed. It identifies both ends of a shipment.

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u/yusuf_achebe102 points·1 year ago

the discontinuation arms are the interesting part, not the SURPASS endpoints

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u/sanne_laurentOP74 points·1 year ago

SURMOUNT-4 discontinuation arm showed regain. That is the reality of a chronic disease treatment, not a failure.

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u/sanne_laurentOP43 points·1 year ago

This is correct. Discontinuation arms show the regain reality.

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u/joaquin_trevino68 points·1 year ago

I am going to push back on this slightly.

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u/first_hundred65 points·1 year ago
nobody says this and everybody needs to hear it
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u/ahmed_iyer37 points·1 year ago

the 10 week readout is different from the 16 week readout

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u/line_demir19 points·1 year ago

Not convinced. The evidence does not support that reading.

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u/oskar_ibarra7 points·1 year ago

STEP, SURMOUNT, SURPASS, SELECT, FLOW, TRIUMPH — read the appendix

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u/trialwatch_theotrial nerd4 points·1 year ago

off-label use data is different from approved-indication data

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u/tb500_tangent9 points·1 year ago

press release SURMOUNT posts must be flaired until a publication exists

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u/rina_sobczak23 points·1 year ago

Strongly agree. Phase 2 is investigational, not conclusive.

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u/gastric_emptying_g48 points·1 year ago

No. This is the kind of confident post that gets copied into a screenshot and repeated for years. Where is the evidence.

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u/britta_boateng56 points·1 year ago

STEP, SURMOUNT, SURPASS, SELECT, FLOW, TRIUMPH — read the appendix

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u/milos_trevino42 points·1 year ago

STEP, SURMOUNT, SURPASS, SELECT, FLOW, TRIUMPH — read the appendix

Adding to this: TRIUMPH is doing more work than the comment implies.

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u/eu_apotheke_a10 points·1 year ago

phase 2 is not phase 3, smaller n and shorter trial

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u/hub_opssite staff8 points·1 year ago

phase 2 is not phase 3, smaller n and shorter trial

Yes, exactly this, and it is the bit that took me 75 weeks to accept.

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u/sanne_laurentOP47 points·1 year ago

Strongly agree. Phase 2 is investigational, not conclusive.

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u/formulary_fighterappeals20 points·1 year ago

dropout handling matters, especially on GI-heavy populations

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u/prior_auth_painappeals17 points·1 year ago

You have restated the marketing copy. What is the actual substance here.

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u/emil_agyeman19 points·1 year ago

the discontinuation arms are the interesting part, not the FLOW endpoints

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u/rina_sobczak6 points·1 year ago

off-label use data is different from approved-indication data

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u/curious_panel_only41 points·1 year ago

Dead space in the needle hub holds a small but non-trivial volume. On low-volume draws that can be several units.

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u/gastric_emptying_g14 points·1 year ago

SURMOUNT-4 discontinuation arm showed regain. That is the reality of a chronic disease treatment, not a failure.

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