GLPHubglpresearchhub.com
Read-only archive. GLP Research Hub is a static community record — nothing here is for sale, no account is needed, and no vote you cast is counted. Why?
Archived. This submission is more than a year old. Votes and new comments are closed, and some of the advice in it may have been superseded — check the community wiki for the current version.
2.2k
c/survodutide·posted 2 years ago by u/julia_mensa

why does nobody talk about MASH

Question Long Haul ×9 Clean Column ×1

why does nobody talk about MASH, and I want the answer with the reasoning attached rather than just the conclusion.

What this compound is actually being developed for, since the boards treat it as a weight-loss molecule with a footnote.

It is a dual GLP-1 and glucagon receptor agonist, and the glucagon arm links to hepatic fat and energy expenditure. The headline programme is metabolic liver disease, with endpoints scored on biopsy rather than on a scale.

That matters for how the data should be read. A histological response rate in a biopsy-confirmed population answers a very different question from a mean weight change in an obesity trial, and quoting one in place of the other — which happens in nearly every thread here — is not a comparison.

Looked for independent results across this whole site and found almost none. Worth knowing before forming an opinion.

Asked here what the difference was between the imaging and biopsy endpoints and got a genuinely excellent answer.

That is everything I have. The rest is opinion and I have tried to keep it out.

2,576 up / 329 down89% upvoted45 commentsid 1rxdxn5 May 2024

45 comments

30 in this archive, depth 6

best — the order this archive was captured in

u/annika_fonseca343 points·2 years ago

Nothing containing this compound is approved anywhere. Research-use-only material is not approved for human use.

replysharereportpermalink
u/vitamin_d_void211 points·2 years ago

The escalation schedules in the published protocols are slow and deliberate, and the tolerability tables show why. That is a description of the trials rather than a suggestion for anybody.

replysharereportpermalink
u/nora_ramos118 points·2 years ago

Careful with the mechanism claim. Glucagon agonism is plausible as an explanation and it has not been isolated as the operative one.

replysharereportpermalink
u/liver_enzyme_liz53 points·2 years ago

dual GLP-1 and glucagon agonist, and the glucagon arm is the story

replysharereportpermalink
u/paper_trail_paulavetting63 points·2 years ago

Assumed the weight numbers were the point and was corrected. They are secondary to what this is being developed for.

replysharereportpermalink
u/rania_salinas0 points·2 years ago

dual GLP-1 and glucagon agonist, and the glucagon arm is the story

This is the framing the board needs. It is a hepatic programme first.

replysharereportpermalink
u/rania_marchand158 points·2 years ago

Independent purity results for this compound are very sparse across the whole site, which means any impression about consistency is built on almost nothing.

replysharereportpermalink
u/whois_wanda130 points·2 years ago

Independent purity results for this compound are very sparse across the whole site, which means any impression about consistency is built on almost no

Disagreeing with this bit: that number comes from a different programme with a different population.

replysharereportpermalink
u/annika_fonseca50 points·2 years ago

Yes — nothing containing this is approved anywhere, which is the first fact and usually the last one mentioned.

replysharereportpermalink
u/teodor_szabo24 points·2 years ago

Biopsy-confirmed population or imaging-selected?

replysharereportpermalink
u/cato_batista7 points·2 years ago

the titration in the trials was slow and deliberate

replysharereportpermalink
u/kaia_cabrera6 points·2 years ago

How fast was the escalation in that protocol?

replysharereportpermalink
u/teodor_szabo37 points·2 years ago

Has anyone posted an independent purity result for this compound?

replysharereportpermalink
load more comments (5) →
u/renal_outcomes_rnephro-curious97 points·2 years ago

Phase 2 in a biopsy-confirmed population is a demanding design: recruitment is slow, the population is specific, and the results do not generalise to people who have not been characterised that way.

replysharereportpermalink
u/trialwatch_theoMOD52 points·2 years ago·edited

Independent result logged. There are almost none for this compound, so it is genuinely valuable.

replysharereportpermalink
u/refund_ledger0 points·2 years ago

It is a dual agonist at the GLP-1 and glucagon receptors. The glucagon arm is associated with increased energy expenditure and with effects on hepatic fat, which is why the development programme is oriented towards liver disease.

replysharereportpermalink
u/heart_rate_bump1 point·2 years ago

Right, and the trial titration was slow for reasons that are visible in the tolerability tables.

replysharereportpermalink
u/zeynep_ndiaye1 point·2 years ago

Push back: the evidence here is phase 2, in a specific population, and it does not support a general ranking.

replysharereportpermalink
u/kasper_cabrera1 point·2 years ago

MASH endpoints are histological, which is a much harder bar

replysharereportpermalink
u/julia_mensaOP1 point·2 years ago

fibrosis improvement without worsening steatohepatitis is the phrase to learn

replysharereportpermalink
u/whois_wanda63 points·2 years ago

This. Biopsy-confirmed and imaging-suggested are different evidentiary categories and get run together constantly.

replysharereportpermalink
u/meera_sandvik26 points·2 years ago

Agreed. The hepatic programme is the point of this compound and the weight discussion is a side effect of the side effect.

replysharereportpermalink
u/renzo_yildiz45 points·2 years ago

Went slowly because everything published describes a deliberate escalation. That is the extent of what I will say about it.

replysharereportpermalink
u/tired_ledger_ftw0 points·2 years ago

That figure is from the obesity programme, and this thread is about the hepatic one.

replysharereportpermalink
u/heart_rate_bump37 points·2 years ago

Imaging-derived liver fat fraction is a surrogate. It correlates with histology imperfectly, and a trial reporting one is not reporting the other.

replysharereportpermalink
Permalinked branches
Deep branches get their own page so a single reply chain can be linked and read on its own.
About c/survodutide

Survodutide-specific discussion: glucagon-receptor co-agonism, the hepatic fat and MASH resolution data, and how the side-effect profile compares with GIP-based dual agonism. Small community, high signal.

12kmembers
62submissions
Feb 2024created
submissions / month, last year
Sponsored

Sigma-Aldrich Standards

Certified reference materials for peptide identity and purity work.

sigmaaldrich.com
c/survodutide rules
  1. Glucagon co-agonism has a distinct safety story. Do not generalise from tirzepatide.
  2. MASH claims need the trial and the biopsy endpoint.
  3. Not approved. Descriptive posts only.
  4. Independent community. Nobody here sells anything, and anyone who tries is banned.
  5. Not medical advice. Describe what you did; never prescribe to a stranger.
  6. Claims need evidence. Batch numbers, dated screenshots, independent test reports, or a citation.
  7. No referral links, discount codes or affiliate URLs. Permanent ban, no appeal.
  8. No contact handles, wallet addresses or tracking numbers — they identify people.
  9. Be recognisably decent. Disagree hard, insult nobody.
Moderators
Volunteers. Unpaid, unaffiliated, and reachable through modmail only.
Before you read on

Several compounds discussed on GLP Research Hub are sold for research use only and are not approved for human use anywhere. Nothing here is medical advice and none of it is written by your clinician. If a post reads like an instruction, treat it as a description of what one stranger did.