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c/trialwatch·posted 1 year ago by u/piotr_bruun

the STEP question that gets asked weekly, answered properly

Readout Cold Box ×8

the STEP question that gets asked weekly, answered properly. Not a hot take, just something I have not seen said plainly here.

Spent an evening with the appendix tables and found the subgroup detail that the entire thread had been speculating about.

Relative risk reduction without the baseline rate is uninterpretable. A large relative reduction on a small absolute risk is a small absolute benefit.

The registered protocol is public. Comparing the registered primary endpoint with the reported one is a two-minute check and it is how outcome switching gets caught.

Please do not ask me what dose you should be on. I genuinely do not know and neither does anyone else here.

873 up / 213 down80% upvoted25 commentsid 5swqz81 May 2025

25 comments

25 in this archive, depth 4

best — the order this archive was captured in

u/first_hundred136 points·1 year ago

Open-label extensions lose their randomisation. Anybody still enrolled at week 104 is a selected group and the numbers describe that group.

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u/sofia_wikstrom75 points·1 year ago

Careful with that mean. The distribution around it was wide enough that it describes very few individual participants.

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u/line_demir63 points·1 year ago

Started keeping the trial identifiers straight in a note file because I kept mixing up two programmes in the same sentence.

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u/hsa_math17 points·1 year ago

Intention-to-treat analyses everybody randomised regardless of what they did afterwards. Completer analyses only those who finished. The second is systematically more flattering and both are legitimate if labelled.

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u/curious_panel_only-27 points·1 year ago

Right — trial participants get structured support. Comparing yourself to a trial mean is comparing across two different interventions.

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u/foam_head_fred1 point·1 year ago

Yes — the interval is the finding. A point estimate with a wide interval is a hypothesis in a nice font.

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u/customs_seizure_sid1 point·1 year ago

FLOW was kidney outcomes and it is the one nobody quotes

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u/ms_fragmenter1 point·1 year ago

Yes. The appendix tables are where the subgroup and the adverse event detail actually live.

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u/rina_sobczak1 point·1 year ago

SELECT was cardiovascular outcomes, not weight

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u/yara_mensah53 points·1 year ago·edited

Cardiovascular outcome trials are powered for events, not for weight, and are typically run in a different population with different inclusion criteria. Reading a weight number out of one is reading a secondary endpoint.

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u/trialwatch_theoMOD28 points·1 year ago·edited

Press-release posts get their own flair here. Nothing wrong with them, they are just a different kind of claim.

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u/joaquin_trevino42 points·1 year ago

Discontinuation rates are a tolerability result. A trial with a strong efficacy number and heavy discontinuation is telling you two things and people only quote one.

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u/joaquin_stanescu29 points·1 year ago

Correction: SURMOUNT is the obesity programme and SURPASS is the diabetes one. The figure you quoted belongs to the other one.

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u/piotr_bruunOP25 points·1 year ago

Small fix — that was the cardiovascular outcomes trial, so weight was a secondary endpoint and the population was different.

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[removed]19 points·1 year ago

[removed by moderator]

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u/week_one_wanda25 points·1 year ago·edited

Quoted a figure here confidently, got asked whether it was ITT, went and checked, and it was not. Learned something.

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u/yara_mensah10 points·1 year ago

Agreed on comparators. "Superior" means nothing until you know superior to what and at what dose.

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u/joaquin_trevino18 points·1 year ago

Argued for a week about a result and then read the limitations section, which conceded most of my opponent’s point.

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u/nayeli_fonseca9 points·1 year ago

Argued for a week about a result and then read the limitations section, which conceded most of my opponent’s point.

joaquin_trevino is right about the programme names. They are different populations with different endpoints.

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u/first_hundred15 points·1 year ago

Read a press release and the publication three months apart. The hedging in the second one was substantial.

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u/formulary_fighterappeals22 points·1 year ago

check who the comparator was before you compare anything

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u/anders_kuusela15 points·1 year ago

Went looking for the registered protocol to see whether the endpoint had changed. It had not, which was reassuring and worth checking.

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u/nora_oyelaran10 points·1 year ago

A confidence interval is the range of effects compatible with the data. Two trials with overlapping intervals have not disagreed, whatever their point estimates look like next to each other.

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u/hedda_adeyemi16 points·1 year ago

a mean is not a promise

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u/piotr_bruunOP12 points·1 year ago

a mean is not a promise

This is the distinction that would end about half the arguments on this board.

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